Jail - Community Feedback

[Brophy]

We've had a very large response in favour of the old jail being re-added to the server.

As you can imagine, this is a bit demotivating to those who have put all the work in, considering the large response in favour of having the jail changed in the first place.

So what we'd like to know is, if you are one of the people who would rather see the old jail, what exactly is it you feel the new jail is lacking compared to the old one?

We're looking into the possibility of adding something new that re-introduces the gameplay element you might feel is lacking in the current jail, while keeping the jail as it currently is (while still being open to changes to it).

Keep discussion civil and on topic, otherwise, punishment will be handed out.

Please note, we are not dismissing the idea of bringing the old jail back, but we would rather explore our options before taking such action.

[Tefa]

Fixing a problem with bringing back the old problem is not good
so if the new jail is boring we can suggest a new things fair enough to both sides not the old overpowered mapping

[Brophy]

@tefa said in Jail - Community Feedback:

Fixing a problem with bringing back the old problem is not good
so if the new jail is boring we can suggest a new things fair enough to both sides not the old overpowered mapping

Such as? What would you change with the current jail?

[Manny]

I kinda don't want to write a paragraph, so i keep it short. When the old jail was still a thing i participated as a cop and criminal in a big jailbreak IN my opinion both were fun and also a thing noone needs nowadays also is that you could get hella money for being a cop in one. But i think the old jail with the route to the roof would be good enough since cops have 3 entrances still and criminals still have a chance of defending

[zaza]

Old jail with improvements , please . New jail too complicated

[Brophy]

@zaza said in Jail - Community Feedback:

Old jail with improvements , please . New jail too complicated

What improvements? This is the whole point of the topic, people ask for improvements or changes but don't say what they exactly want.

[Guard]

Old jail was simple. The new jail didn't have as much simplicity.

[Brophy]

The main question I would like answered is the following (ignore the "bring back old jail" bandwagon for the time being):

~[What exactly is it you feel the new jail is lacking compared to the old one?]~(orange)

[SKY-911-]

The old one for sure. We should not take another gamble of keeping the new one and improving some things on it.. what if we dont like it? We didnt have a problem at all with the other jail. The new jail doesnt even feel like a jail at all to be honest.

[Brophy]

@sky-911 said in Jail - Community Feedback:

We didnt have a problem at all with the other jail.

You say this but this was the poll for the current jail:

@sky-911 said in Jail - Community Feedback:

what if we dont like it?

That's the whole purpose of having a discussion, trying, testing and giving feedback.

[Lorch]

to be honest, just bring back the old Jail, you have created various Prison Maps and nothing worked with and didnt get better than the old one

[alius]

(Edit) My reply took longer than expected thinking about making it even, and seen above replies and changes/edits. But this is for the old jail mapping btw.

• A door added between food court and Gym for both crimes and cops.


• A cop only door from roof entrance marker hallway area to back side of phone room with an added cop only door to the long hallway. (Crims can still use the other side of phone booths though to defend)
  *Move Warden spawn back to the yard, but keep the stairs to roof access
  *Add taller walls near the backside of old warden yard spawn so spawn killing / nades dont / cant happen (maybe disable nades in that area if possible in general)
  *Change the entrance interior layout

I think that would balance the old jail layout perfectly fine to be honest and Ive played this old mapping on both sides for many years.

[Absent]

The difference between the old jail and the new one is that nowadays criminals have to hold two corridors which simply requires more people to do so. In the past, one man could initiate a jailbreak on his own and even hold it for some time, because there was only one way the cops could reach him ( 1 corridor). During that time, other people could join and help him and basically that's how big jailbreaks were organized. With the new jail it's impossible to hold two corridors on your own, so you get jailed quickly and the jailbreak fails. That's how I see the things and the solution could be - either only one corridor to exist or the two corridors to be connected to one.

[Malapumba]

Although old jail was kinda unfair for cop side, you could easily end up with some millions in your bag within a short time. I used to assist as cop in these long duration jbs and i always end up with a few millions, which it's nice... Cops might be also motivated for money and easy stats. Remember, when the old jail was active, crims were doing jbs, cops were assisting,tryings to stop them. Now, with the new jail, crims are demotivated to jb and obviously, cops don't have a jb to stop. In my opinion, old jail was fine as it was.

[zKill98]

Bring back old jail but just leave the exterior ladder that s all

[zaza]

I would like to see another escape point from jail to outside for criminals . Maybe roof or garage or both.

[JojoDb]

Seeing that barely anyone really seems to give an answer to WHY the old jail seems better.. An assumption as to why I think people liked the old jail more.. Feel free to agree or correct me!

The old jail was a good way for people to have a long period of killing/arresting each other.
Even though we are an RPG server, people still enjoy the simplicity of killing one another.

My assumption is that the aspect of breaking out of jail was not really the core of jailbreaks, but that criminals went to jailbreaks to have a controlled environment where they could kill cops and where cops could have some fun arresting/killing criminals without long chases.

Do you guys agree with this or do you think there are other reasons?

[Nevs]

From my perspective the new jail has too many corridors. It makes it very tough to hold for criminals. In addition some of the corridors are way too short while considering the TTK of most weapons, which makes it very easy for cops to arrest..

If that could be adjusted I wouldnt mind the new prison as it potentially would be more balanced. On the other side I am sure such adjustments could be done in the old jail too..

Absent suggests potentially having 2 corridors connected to one, which could be an interesring solution. Maybe by connectinc food court and gym with a door or something like that as Silalius proposes.

Furthermore I dont see any problems with how the old jail was in terms of the possible earnings for copside. As copside hasnt been as active as criminal side, this potential income could also be a motivational factor while choosing which side you want to take part in.

The most important thing is to make it a fun activity where both cops and crims can enjoy themselves. This will lead to more activity and a better ingame experience. Unfortunately that is not the case at this moment in time. And I have to agree with Jojo, what most players probably miss is the way the old jail gave you the opportunity to hold the jail for longer periods and have a controlled area to "fight" against the cops.

[FreshCoffee]

The new jail is big and theres alot of rooms i still get lost in it , so i stopped doing jbs and trying to escape Meanwhile the old one is simple and perfect for both sides , that's my opinion about these 2 jails

[Nishki]

@jojodb said in Jail - Community Feedback:

Seeing that barely anyone really seems to give an answer to WHY the old jail seems better.. An assumption as to why I think people liked the old jail more.. Feel free to agree or correct me!

The old jail was a good way for people to have a long period of killing/arresting each other.
Even though we are an RPG server, people still enjoy the simplicity of killing one another.

My assumption is that the aspect of breaking out of jail was not really the core of jailbreaks, but that criminals went to jailbreaks to have a controlled environment where they could kill cops and where cops could have some fun arresting/killing criminals without long chases.

Do you guys agree with this or do you think there are other reasons?

@jojodb Yes what you said is totally true but that was the most fun thing to do in the server for like 80% of the players

[Daryl]

@jojodb said in Jail - Community Feedback:

Seeing that barely anyone really seems to give an answer to WHY the old jail seems better.. An assumption as to why I think people liked the old jail more.. Feel free to agree or correct me!

The old jail was a good way for people to have a long period of killing/arresting each other.
Even though we are an RPG server, people still enjoy the simplicity of killing one another.

My assumption is that the aspect of breaking out of jail was not really the core of jailbreaks, but that criminals went to jailbreaks to have a controlled environment where they could kill cops and where cops could have some fun arresting/killing criminals without long chases.

Do you guys agree with this or do you think there are other reasons?

Obviously

Balance isn't always fun, with the old jail it was totally imbalanced in a fun way.

It was very difficult for criminals to fully escape so it was unbalanced in that way

It was also exceptionally hard for cops to take control of the jail so it was unbalanced in that way

The unbalance balanced out. Balance.

Stalemates are fun, new jail is too clean and well made, hence BORING.

OLD JAIL PLEASE

I've already seen how good the old jail looks with the improvements and shadering, it's just night and day better than what is there now and what was there before

[kikas]

Like many people said before me, having only 1 main corridor leading into control room, which itself was right next to red door, is the main reason why people prefer the old jail over current one.

In the current version there's 2 main corridors + 1 additional passage leading straight into control room, while both red doors are far off to the sides. While, on paper, giving cops more different angles to approach from makes the fight more strategic and gives cops greater chance to stop the outbreak by exploiting any weaknesses in our defense.

The main reason people even start those massive jailbreaks usually isn't to help someone escape. We don't do that for money either, since the only criminals making money at JBs are the ones selling guns or drugs, while everyone else is spending. The reason we start jailbreaks is the DM that comes with it. The constant back and forth between the 2 sides. If the activity cannot last for long enough (it used to last for hours), people genuinely start to lose interest.

One issue I've noticed, that I think contributes to JBs being shorter is the inability to keep the defenders coordinated and informed. There are 3 different teamchats people use on the defenders side, compared to the cops using radio to communicate. With 25+ defenders (although recently it's been difficult to even reach 15) you can't rely on the party chat due to it's max member limitations.

With the old jail, you don't really have to rely on chats as much because of the map layout. You get 1 main corridor + 1 additional passage, both of which can be used by either side. They both merge into one, long corridor before even reaching the turn towards control room. This simplicity in design allows the defenders to focus on just 1 area. And since control room and red door are right on top of each other, the criminals can easily take it back as long as there are still people outside their cells and at least one to open the door. All those things together make the map more about grindy, linear fights than strategic approaches and angles, which generally makes it easier to sustain a good defense, since nobody needs to overthink their positioning at any given moment. It's simply more relaxing.

Having said that, I don't believe the current jail can be turned into something that plays out better, because the missing element is the simplicity and the linear design of the old jail. This jail is the opposite of that. The general idea of having 2 main lanes on opposite sides + a mid section between them has been known and used in many competitive games for a very long time, ever since it was first introduced in Counter-Strike's Dust 2. It is a great concept for competitive games, and it might be a decent mapping for Lounge-style 5v5 matches (or 3v3, since the map is a bit small for 5v5). But it isn't suitable for anything larger if you want to keep the activity going for hours, because most people attending JBs don't treat it like a competition. It's never been about winning for us criminals, it's about fighting, and keeping the fight going for as long as possible. And with this design, the fight doesn't last long enough and requires too much attention for us to bother doing it.

[PhantomS]

The idea of the new jail was creative but after having it live IG, many took a step back, it is barely a jail since it was easy for cops to arrest since many doors were made and you don't even know from which side the cop is going to come.
The old jail was simple, 2 doors to enter / exit, 4 gates to pass and a red door, plus the warden's door and the main door have the same way which makes the criminal able to see who's coming, I d like to see some improvements but at the same time those improvements might ruin the gameplay so we have to be aware of the consequences, jail plays 60% (took a guess) of the server's activity so it is important to have something enjoyable for both of the sides.

Ideas related to some improvements in the new jail:

Having a gate in the clothing room near to the payphone, easy escape for criminals and easy entrance for cops.

Keeping the same system in the control room and adding a vent that drops the criminal in the gym room.

Adding a door near the back yard entrance that can be only opened by cops, just to avoid the spam of marker kill.

Removing "criminal is near the jail / entered the jail" alert and replacing it with a control room connected to cameras outside of the jail, allows us to have a view of what's going outside of the jail, with this idea cops can report a JB in the radio by themselves, in case none is inside, a jail break can be made, alert goes once a criminal pass through the red door.

[Pengo]

If the community could settle on a relative concept for a new jail, perhaps I could map something nice.

[Weppo]

If possible either remove the gate in the long corridor. Making cops not having to worry about a gate when peaking. Or change the peaking angle. Aka putting to corridor to the left instead of right. Giving the (re)takers an angle advantage. This could have already balanced it by an tiny amount.

(Old jail that is)