The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.

[Patrol]

Next point on the agenda is transparency. SAES has a severe lack of transparency and bias. Sushi is a great example of this. It might be that Sushi is a relative of Ronseal but why should that grant her admin and membership in DE immediately?

Hello, i will speak in the name of DE,

Sushi being DE has nothing todo with SAES HQ or she being the daughter of Ronseal. In fact that means 0 to me or any DEHQ.

You are right in one thing, she is SAES. And i myself currently leading DE i do give SAES> members to opportunity to join DE if they wish. I simply follow an old habit there used to be where SAES members could choose between CLO / DE, now only DE still does that and it is not something i am going to change.

I do give SAES members the chance of joining DE if they want , and i gave it to Sushi and she accepted.

[Silence]

In other words patrol is a simp

[fenter]

Wow, get got banned again...
we live in a society that Admins doesn't want people to talk so they ban them

[Tut]

@fenter said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

Wow, get got banned again...
we live in a society that Admins doesn't want people to talk so they ban them

No, the account was banned for being a secondary which we don't allow.
The ban issued has no relation to the post's contents, only the fact that it's a secondary account that is now using our forums where not allowed.

[jamal2]

whatever you do, don't let @Filex join the dev team

[Assassin]

Just you to note, a freelance MTA scripter would cost you 20-50$ maximum to make for you a totally new script. That's because we are talking about MTA/Lua and that's where the cheapest things happen. There are so many scripters in the MTA community willing to work for pennies, you can check them out as well.

However, I am sure SAES Dev team is well-aware of this and they maybe have a proper reason of not hiring an outsider to fix the things. Maybe the plan is to hire a trusted and non-retarded developer which can be a community admin at the same time?

Obviously, it is very rare to find a non-retarded MTA developer nowadays. Just look at this topic and see how many people are trying to get use of this conversation and see potential to get inside the clan.

Nevertheless, it is not impossible to find someone when it comes to money. Temporary problems can be solved with freelance devs and then we have our own developers to monitor and keep the things on track.

[Quality]

it seems like everyone is focusing on money. It doesn't have to be about money and donations. Just add the things that people voted for in "suggestions" topic.. lol don't complicate things

[Howlze]

Here's my two cents.

1. 
   

   Hire a freelance scripter
   -- This is not "just" possible, the scripter has to take the other scripts into account, as well as the current scripts are mostly a shit show due to being coded YEARS ago (multiple developers have stated this). You cannot just hire an outsider to do a job, that he has no knowledge about - hiring him would also include in SAES having to go through the older scripts with him, as well as potentially (?) even handing him the other scripts, so he could get a jist of what to do, and how to do it - big no-no for an outsider.

   
   


2. 
   

   What about all the donation money?!
   -- I'm going to be very rough in my words - like it or not. What half of you either 16 year olds (or: people with no understanding for money, because you either, a) live at home, or b) don't have any financial stability) understand, is that there's up times, and there's down times. SAES has surely encountered multiple down times over the years, as donations have not been rolling in at the same volume as they have been for the past year (two?). Understand that there has to be a steady balance in income before you can start adding onto the expenses. At the end of the day, SAES is probably still figuratively in a minus (they are not, as Brophy, RonSeal and the rest of the original team paid out of their own pockets), due to the years of lack of donations, and the high volume of expenses.

   
   

---

I have made a rough draft of what circa the expenses are alongside the donations between 2018 and 2020, which paints a great picture of what I am talking about:

As you can see above, in 2018 the expenses outweighed the donations by approximately $3,581.94, that means, that the past donations had to cover for the loss of that year. You can't "just" get rid of expenses, the dedicated server is VERY powerful, requires A LOT of resources hence the estimated price. In 2020 SAES received a very high amount of donations (currently, as of today), which totals at $6,246.20, however, calculating with the loss of 2018, they are still missing $1,780.24 to even go neutral in donations. Where are they supposed to get $100, $200 or even $500 to cover the costs of a scripter?

I don't blame you guys for not taking all this into account, as you're all still quite young (most of you), and you don't have a full understanding of how economy works, hereunder expenses and income.

Let me just repeat myself; this is my two cents, you may have a different vision or opinion than me, and that is fine, if we all agreed on absolutely everything, then this world would be a very boring place.

[Filex]

@Assassin said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

Just you to note, a freelance MTA scripter would cost you 20-50$ maximum to make for you a totally new script. That's because we are talking about MTA/Lua and that's where the cheapest things happen. There are so many scripters in the MTA community willing to work for pennies, you can check them out as well.

• 
  

  20-50$ whoever takes that much is either a bad developer or a cheap developer (just ask @JohnTurner how much he would get if he get requested to work on a core resources), from people i know that are respected developers within the community, the cheapest you can find for a fully functionning single resource will go around 40$+, negociations can help to get a lower price, but we are speaking about a whole core which is old, but also a matter of fact which i personally noticed from a personal visual and practical experience, someone who will work on refactoring an old code base will take lot more than working on a new one atleast that's what i would do or people that i know would do.

  
  


• 
  

  Interest, most of developers are moving from MTA looking into bigger goals since MTA lasts as a hobby after all even for it's developers, finding someone who will take SAES as a job and keep it's maintenance will be rare and rarity means a higher cost.

  
  


• 
  

  Plus, for an old/respected community like SAES i don't think going through small developers (cheaper cost) to go and work on core resources will be possible and for "respected" developers i don't think the cost will be affordable.

  
  


• 
  

  In addition to the previous argument working on saes resources won't be possible for a random developer unless he gets trained to ensure his skills, that's why roles like Contributor (PENsource previously) exist for most of people that ever wanted to script for SAES.

  
  


• 
  

  I agree that change should happen feature wise but i also tend to be realistic, everyone wants to see a better SAES (something @Adistar and @NanoBob can agree on sarcastic ) but how/when/where needs some deeper discussions taking all factors in count.

  
  

@jamal2 said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

whatever you do, don't let @Filex join the dev team

I'm not a developer, i'm a creative smd :kissing: :harriot:

[Quality]

@Howlze said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

Here's my two cents.

1. 
   

   Hire a freelance scripter
   -- This is not "just" possible, the scripter has to take the other scripts into account, as well as the current scripts are mostly a shit show due to being coded YEARS ago (multiple developers have stated this). You cannot just hire an outsider to do a job, that he has no knowledge about - hiring him would also include in SAES having to go through the older scripts with him, as well as potentially (?) even handing him the other scripts, so he could get a jist of what to do, and how to do it - big no-no for an outsider.

   
   


2. 
   

   What about all the donation money?!
   -- I'm going to be very rough in my words - like it or not. What half of you either 16 year olds (or: people with no understanding for money, because you either, a) live at home, or b) don't have any financial stability) understand, is that there's up times, and there's down times. SAES has surely encountered multiple down times over the years, as donations have not been rolling in at the same volume as they have been for the past year (two?). Understand that there has to be a steady balance in income before you can start adding onto the expenses. At the end of the day, SAES is probably still figuratively in a minus (they are not, as Brophy, RonSeal and the rest of the original team paid out of their own pockets), due to the years of lack of donations, and the high volume of expenses.

   
   

---

I have made a rough draft of what circa the expenses are alongside the donations between 2018 and 2020, which paints a great picture of what I am talking about:

As you can see above, in 2018 the expenses outweighed the donations by approximately $3,581.94, that means, that the past donations had to cover for the loss of that year. You can't "just" get rid of expenses, the dedicated server is VERY powerful, requires A LOT of resources hence the estimated price. In 2020 SAES received a very high amount of donations (currently, as of today), which totals at $6,246.20, however, calculating with the loss of 2018, they are still missing $1,780.24 to even go neutral in donations. Where are they supposed to get $100, $200 or even $500 to cover the costs of a scripter?

I don't blame you guys for not taking all this into account, as you're all still quite young (most of you), and you don't have a full understanding of how economy works, hereunder expenses and income.

Let me just repeat myself; this is my two cents, you may have a different vision or opinion than me, and that is fine, if we all agreed on absolutely everything, then this world would be a very boring place.

And that's why I'll keep donating, not much but I'll keep doing that as long as SAES is alive.

Despite all the issues in the community, I think, all people that contributed to SAES in terms of scripting/server-issue/money-issue etc., they all deserve to get paid or thanked or rewarded in a way. At least a good thank you from the community. #When was the last time someone made a topic thanking SAES? Or someone that has put thousand of hours of his personal life to make this server and community better? Maybe this is the topic where this should be noted. It takes dedication, heart & passion.

Again, forget where we're at and all the issues there have been, it's 2020, clearly someone cares about this community. You think they can't close all of this down? It can all be shutdown in minutes and everything is gone.

Thank you to all SAES guys that have contributed to this amazing community in some shape or form. I say happy420, to another 20 more years. :harriot:

[WenDo]

@Howlze Sorry I might be wrong but, Why the fuck would someone spend 1k monthly on bastage forums? I was there few times and all I see are posts from 2 years ago. As i said, I might be wrong but if you know more, explain me please.

[Howlze]

@WenDo said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

@Howlze Sorry I might be wrong but, Why the fuck would someone spend 1k monthly on bastage forums? I was there few times and all I see are posts from 2 years ago. As i said, I might be wrong but if you know more, explain me please.

What are you talking about?

$1.083 = 1 dollar + 0.083

[WenDo]

@Howlze said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

@WenDo said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

@Howlze Sorry I might be wrong but, Why the fuck would someone spend 1k monthly on bastage forums? I was there few times and all I see are posts from 2 years ago. As i said, I might be wrong but if you know more, explain me please.

What are you talking about?

$1.083 = 1 dollar + 0.083

Oh my bad XD

[Assassin]

@Filex said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

@Assassin said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

Just you to note, a freelance MTA scripter would cost you 20-50$ maximum to make for you a totally new script. That's because we are talking about MTA/Lua and that's where the cheapest things happen. There are so many scripters in the MTA community willing to work for pennies, you can check them out as well.

• 
  

  20-50$ whoever takes that much is either a bad developer or a cheap developer (just ask @JohnTurner how much he would get if he get requested to work on a core resources), from people i know that are respected developers within the community, the cheapest you can find for a fully functionning single resource will go around 40$+, negociations can help to get a lower price, but we are speaking about a whole core which is old, but also a matter of fact which i personally noticed from a personal visual and practical experience, someone who will work on refactoring an old code base will take lot more than working on a new one atleast that's what i would do or people that i know would do.

  
  


• 
  

  Interest, most of developers are moving from MTA looking into bigger goals since MTA lasts as a hobby after all even for it's developers, finding someone who will take SAES as a job and keep it's maintenance will be rare and rarity means a higher cost.

  
  


• 
  

  Plus, for an old/respected community like SAES i don't think going through small developers (cheaper cost) to go and work on core resources will be possible and for "respected" developers i don't think the cost will be affordable.

  
  


• 
  

  In addition to the previous argument working on saes resources won't be possible for a random developer unless he gets trained to ensure his skills, that's why roles like Contributor (PENsource previously) exist for most of people that ever wanted to script for SAES.

  
  


• 
  

  I agree that change should happen feature wise but i also tend to be realistic, everyone wants to see a better SAES (something @Adistar and @NanoBob can agree on sarcastic ) but how/when/where needs some deeper discussions taking all factors in count.

  
  

@jamal2 said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

whatever you do, don't let @Filex join the dev team

I'm not a developer, i'm a creative smd :kissing: :harriot:

One second,
Do you realize that 40$ is still in the 20-50$ budget ?

Let's put aside the budget for a second. We can't go over the fact that SAES currently has some serious issues which can be fixed permanently if someone works on them. Just to say, community needs "temporary" developers and then we it will need QA team just to be sure those solutions last long enough.

I also don't get why you started to kinda attack me on the second phrase. I was the person who opened the topic that developers might not be interested in this. What I am only saying is that, you can't expect SAES to recruit every retarded "scripter" to the clan which are trying to get use of this conversations.

Anyway, even if it is 100$, this budget still sounds like a nice investment towards future. To me the unique solution is to hire someone to fix those temporary problems and then just monitor/track the server behavior with the Dev team SAES has at the moment.

However, as @Howlze and several other people mentioned, the codes that SAES has requires a deep "learning" phase which will be a trouble if we go with the Freelancer way.

Seems like HQs and Dev team has a real challenge here recruiting a trusted person to the clan. But all in all, it looks like they worked free for a while now and we should respect that.

[Guest]

I aswell would love to see so much stuff happen and alot of the suggested stuff to become reality. But I can't and won't complain.

Scorpyo has been implementing a huge load of new stuff for everyone here recently. Out of a simple question I asked him and due to me fucking up race pads, he instantly fixed them and gave it a nice little touch aswell as adding no collission to the event panel which gives race events a whole different touch.

I can only imagine how much pressure Scorpyo has. You should check out the changelogs on discord, it's insane. Stuff is happening. It's way better than it was before.

And as long as we have people like Scorpyo I will continue to donate to the server. And it isn't just Scorpyo, I mean Terry, Tut, Ardron, Drot and Daryl aswell, and many more are what makes this server simply great and enjoyable to me currently.

I know how hard it is - and since I don't want to script myself, the last thing I would do is complain

[Assassin]

@AkyZ said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

I aswell would love to see so much stuff happen and alot of the suggested stuff to become reality. But I can't and won't complain.

Scorpyo has been implementing a huge load of new stuff for everyone here recently. Out of a simple question I asked him and due to me fucking up race pads, he instantly fixed them and gave it a nice little touch aswell as adding no collission to the event panel which gives race events a whole different touch.

I can only imagine how much pressure Scorpyo has. You should check out the changelogs on discord, it's insane. Stuff is happening. It's way better than it was before.

And as long as we have people like Scorpyo I will continue to donate to the server. And it isn't just Scorpyo, I mean Terry, Tut, Ardron, Drot and Daryl aswell, and many more are what makes this server simply great and enjoyable to me currently.

I know how hard it is - and since I don't want to script myself, the last thing I would do is complain

We just need to tag big man here - @Scorpyo

[Tritosh]

@AkyZ said in The big flaws in SAES, time for a change.:

And as long as we have people like Scorpyo I will continue to donate to the server. And it isn't just Scorpyo, I mean Terry, Tut, Ardron, Drot and Daryl aswell, and many more are what makes this server simply great and enjoyable to me currently.

Apart from drot, ardron and tut you just gave trash bins a name

[Filex]

we spoke on discord already but for people to understand the points here too

One second,
Do you realize that 40$ is still in the 20-50$ budget ?

I was criticizing the interval itself which is 20-50 i gave an approximate interval that starts from 40$+ knowing that it's still cheap but it also depends on the concept of the resource we are paying for here.

Let's put aside the budget for a second. We can't go over the fact that SAES currently has some serious issues which can be fixed permanently if someone works on them. Just to say, community needs "temporary" developers and then we it will need QA team just to be sure those solutions last long enough.

Fixing the problems that exist already in SAES core alone without counting someone maintaining it ( let's say the existing developers will do ) will cost alone more than what saes can afford counting all the expenses around already.

I also don't get why you started to kinda attack me on the second phrase. I was the person who opened the topic that developers might not be interested in this. What I am only saying is that, you can't expect SAES to recruit every retarded "scripter" to the clan which are trying to get use of this conversations.

I didn't attack you never intended to, i actually agree with you here and pointed that as an argument for my main point, most of people that ever learnt what MTA offers in terms of scripting features all started from a passion a passion vanishes slowly growing and having different interests, you will rarely find someone who is good and having MTA:SA scripting as a main job which makes it more costy when you find one.

Anyway, even if it is 100$, this budget still sounds like a nice investment towards future. To me the unique solution is to hire someone to fix those temporary problems and then just monitor/track the server behavior with the Dev team SAES has at the moment.

I get you are giving 100$ as an example here but speaking in general back to my 2nd point, if we use @Howlze calculator and accountancy skills, we will figure out that saes will go bankrupt before even reworking the whole core which makes the investement impossible.

However, as @Howlze and several other people mentioned, the codes that SAES has requires a deep "learning" phase which will be a trouble if we go with the Freelancer way.

Back to my main post, someone who will rework an existing core will ask for much more than someone making a whole new core, since as you said it requires study of how the core works and it will be worst if it's someone that doesn't play on server (doesn't know the majority of features concept wise) and it's also not an option just because it's costy but also because it's hard to trust someone for that.

Seems like HQs and Dev team has a real challenge here recruiting a trusted person to the clan. But all in all, it looks like they worked free for a while now and we should respect that.

Recruiting is always happening, back to my main point the existance of contributor group which is a ground to prepare people in order to possibly work on the core in the future with Nano words, and all developers got the high respect because they do that out of love not money yes while they could ask for a lot and asking for someone paid adds just more pressure on them so i disagree with it totally in a strict.

This will be my last response so before i close, as a member of the community i strive for features as anyone else yes, but we should be realistic a bit, taking all policies away we should go back to the reason we are all here and what we all agree about, it's our love to this community and server with all it's "shit", and love is connected to patience not chances to put pressure, @Scorpyo (the fucker) is doing a great job and trying to help, @Mega9 did before him and future developers will do too aslong as they are free.

Peace.

[Malapumba]

@Rabygone XDDD

[Ronnie]

Honestly I'd foot the bill, or at least part of it, if SAES hired a dedicated scripter to re-do all the ancient code and make it compatible with new scripts. I'm sure many members of the community would chip in, if you asked them.

As for the quality? I've been playing on and off since 2012/2013 and no matter how much time I took off, I always came back to the same server. Which can either be good or bad.