THIS IS NOT FAIR

[James]

When we must report some one we must have screenshots otherwise if you don't have then he doesn't get admin jail. but i got admin jail with no SS.IF you have proof i will accepted and strict respect that.. the only thing i don't understand why i got admin jail and all ice with no SS because i never open the red box in Jail. so then the staff O HUMEN admin me in jail with no ss and for nothing.. i all ready investigate this matter and i had one discussion. and now i remember yesterday Saturday i was in jail and one police go stuck in side prison and one other cop open the red box to let the police out. and one criminal run out and SAFP|MrDeath|CDT AND ICE|Sam|L go after him ...AND after all that i go admin jail and the rest i ice for doing nothing' how can i find my rights in this game? THIS way all will go from this server because this is not fair this is why there are not police in this server only criminal i don't like to have difference with staff and SAES.. i only what to be fair and if i brake the F1 rule i ACCEPTED MY punish admin jail.. but when i did not brake the F1 rules and i get admin jail this is unfair... @Human_

[Sam.]

Yes James you are right they don't have the rights to adminjail all ice members. And without proof never, so that means the admins can put everyone in jail for fun. Saes Staff or admin must have rules they can not do what they want. We open the red door to help a police officer that's not against the rules. We have the permission to open the red door to help police out if they are stuck inside. And this is not a rule break only if you open the red door to arrest the criminals. So i open the red door to help him out but behind the red door was waiting one crim and when i want to help the police to come out, the crim come out to. So if they report that, that we open the red door to arrest criminals is a liar! And if someone report false to make ice bad and the admin put all ice in adminjail this is not right this is ridiculous! @Human_

[Teddy]

As a clan we trust our community staff with the powers they have been given (obviously including adminjail) and we expect them to exercise those powers with fairness and transparency. SAES HQ has regular oversight of community staff including the logs of all their actions with their panels, so claims of abuse could be minimised.

As part of our trust, we allow community staff to handle reports without the need to justify themselves to a clan member or on the forums, mainly because we receive well over 100 reports a day and this would simply be impractical. The report system can take up a very large proportion of server resources (especially screenshots) and cause lag, so we try to solve reports as soon as possible and we do not keep reports saved after deletion for any hypothetical 'appeal'

As a general rule, police should avoid opening the red door in the first place, however as far as I am aware the report was deemed legitimate because all of your nametags (Sam, you, MrDeath and another ICE) were on the screenshot as near the door, as well as a criminal inside, so it was seen as letting criminals out.

If you would like to report a community staff for abuse of power or for severely misjudging reports you can PM @Magnus who leads the CS from HQ or someone on the CS leadership team ( @Gengar)

[Combine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkfdGYu2vSM

[Joshbond]

@teddy said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

As a clan we trust our community staff with the powers they have been given (obviously including adminjail) and we expect them to exercise those powers with fairness and transparency. SAES HQ has regular oversight of community staff including the logs of all their actions with their panels, so claims of abuse could be minimised.

As part of our trust, we allow community staff to handle reports without the need to justify themselves to a clan member or on the forums, mainly because we receive well over 100 reports a day and this would simply be impractical. The report system can take up a very large proportion of server resources (especially screenshots) and cause lag, so we try to solve reports as soon as possible and we do not keep reports saved after deletion for any hypothetical 'appeal'

As a general rule, police should avoid opening the red door in the first place, however as far as I am aware the report was deemed legitimate because all of your nametags (Sam, you, MrDeath and another ICE) were on the screenshot as near the door, as well as a criminal inside, so it was seen as letting criminals out.

If you would like to report a community staff for abuse of power or for severely misjudging reports you can PM @Magnus who leads the CS from HQ or someone on the CS leadership team ( @Gengar)

@Teddy @Magnus

Teddy I understand that SAES entrust their CS members to use their powers fairly and correctly. I am someone out of most who has learnt this and suffered the consequences of this over my SAES career.

However today is different. The situation that lead to ICE and other squad members being jailed is not something mentioned in the F1 rules. So first of all it is not a violation of the server rules. 2nd of all, their was no attempt to communicate with these squad members. They were just immediately admin jailed.

Now Teddy, during my staff days, jailing without communication is something that should not be done by any staff. I was warned on a few occasions for admin jailing someone on the spot without communication, by SAES HQ members. So has this logic now changed? If so why has it changed? Is that then saying that what I was doing previously is correct and actually I done nothing wrong?

I am just worried that all these squad members were adminjailed instantly for not even violating a Server rule in F1.

Yes maybe the squad member who was stuck inside jail could have F1 im stuck, but remember this is not something that can be done anymore in the jail area F1 im stuck is disabled. So at the time it was thought to let him out by opening the red door as it was not seen that any criminals were out of their cell. This was not abuse of the permissions us squads have but simply trying to help a squad member out of Jail.

I am not arguing here at all Teddy, I am just expressing my views on this event. Any comment from you would be highly appreciated. If you would like to discuss this in PM instead of this topic I have no objection to that either.

Thanks,

Josh

On a side note Teddy. I will speak to ICE leadership (as I am also part of its leadership) and discuss methods of reporting this sort of incidents. I can completely understand James's frustration as this is not something ANY staff member should be doing. However I will discuss within the ICE's leadership a better method of reporting such solution. On the other hand, I do think these sort of incidents do need to be brought to light and not kept in the shadows.

[Sam.]

..

[Nirjhor.]

bad @Human_

[Brophy]

Wow.

Such feels for being put in jail.

[StarWars]

They've donated so much, they want special treatment of course @Brophy.

[Flex]

ICE OPERATION <<<<<<<<<<

[Joshbond]

@starwars said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

They've donated so much, they want special treatment of course @Brophy.

I think your comment is very immature and obnoxious. Think you might even have slight jealousy there.

James has every right to be frustrated due to what happened. You would be frustrated too @StarWars if it happened to you.

We know donations dont give us any 'special treatment' nor do we seek it at all. We at ICE are fair people and understand that. We have donated to simply help the server. So instead of insulting someone who has donated a lot to help the server so you can play on it. Show a little respect instead!

[Leo]

I know this is unfair. We all were in this situtation. But there's nothing we can do. It was a big hit for your squad reputation,but you can't change past so focus on future!

[Joshbond]

@leo said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

I know this is unfair. We all were in this situtation. But there's nothing we can do. It was a big hit for your squad reputation,but you can't change past so focus on future!

Now Leo what you have wrote makes sense and is actually one of the few decent comments I see. So well done sir.

This is the frustrating thing that because of this poor act from this particular staff, our squads rep has been effected when we done nothing wrong. But it has happened before and we will get through it as ICE dont give up.

[Joshbond]

@brophy said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

Wow.

Such feels for being put in jail.

Brophy, I am a bit disappointed with your comment to be honest. I expected more of a responsible review of this due to yourself being saes HQ. Now I understand that this is just a game, I completely do but such actions from SAES staff are serious.

Similar to the example I used above with myself. If the sort of action that Human done was not acceptable 3 years ago, when I was staff. Then why are they acceptable now?

I think this is something that should not be ignored as ICE reputation has been effected big time by this and could possibly effect our rank up to level 3 because of a poor choice from a SAES staff member.

[Tut]

butthurt beyond 110%

[Joshbond]

@tut-greco said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

butthurt beyond 110%

Not butthurt mate got more important things to be worried about ;)

Just trying to help these guys out and also point out such actions should not be accepted. Not trying to get Human removed at all man. Everyone makes mistakes but I think a HQ member needs to speak to him about his poor choice of actions today and give him some advice on what he should do.

[Gengar]

@Joshbond
Staff members are allowed to deliver punishments to players without consulting with SAES clan about it. That's why they are here - to administrate when members of clan can't. Otherwise, there would be no point in having staff members around and it would all be done by SAES only. I'm not sure what do you mean by "it wasn't allowed when you were staff", staff members were always allowed to deliver punishment without consultation with SAES about it.

Now, for all ICE members that were involved in this case:
I looked at screen posted in report and logs that went with it. According to that, it looks like the gates did indeed get open by cops so that criminals can run out and get arrested. Based on what I saw there, I fully support Humans decision and action regarding that report. I'd really like to see you prove me wrong, if you have any evidence to back that up. But until that happens, all we have is very good evidence of rulebreak from people involved in report on one side, against your word alone on the other side.

[Tilong]

/me grabs some popcorn

[Joshbond]

@gengar said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

@Joshbond
Staff members are allowed to deliver punishments to players without consulting with SAES clan about it. That's why they are here - to administrate when members of clan can't. Otherwise, there would be no point in having staff members around and it would all be done by SAES only. I'm not sure what do you mean by "it wasn't allowed when you were staff", staff members were always allowed to deliver punishment without consultation with SAES about it.

Now, for all ICE members that were involved in this case:
I looked at screen posted in report and logs that went with it. According to that, it looks like the gates did indeed get open by cops so that criminals can run out and get arrested. Based on what I saw there, I fully support Humans decision and action regarding that report. I'd really like to see you prove me wrong, if you have any evidence to back that up. But until that happens, all we have is very good evidence of rulebreak from people involved in report on one side, against your word alone on the other side.

@Gengar

Thank you for your response.

I think you have have misunderstood one of my comments. I agree that staff should not have to ask SAES about everything they do as like you said, whats the point of having staff then. What I was saying was, before staff instantly adminjail someone, to speak to the people who they want to admin jail first, to give them a chance. During my time as staff I adminjailed a few people on the spot without speaking to them. When I done this Lance came and had a go at me and said I must try and talk to these people first before instantly admin jailing them. That is what I meant by my comments.

Gengar the screenshots don't show everything though, hence why staff should speak to the people before instantly jailing them. There was a squad member stuck inside of the jail. As we all know "F1 I'm Stuck" does not work in the jail. So the only way to get them out was via an admin or open the red door. Now from what I was told admins were not responding to the request so it was decided to open the red door to let the squad member out. I was also informed that during this it was not easy to notice criminals being near the red door and ready to escape.

So in the end, the red door was not opened to let criminals out but to free a squad member stuck. Hence why the squad members should have been spoken to first instead of instantly jailing. I was also told during this, Human left after he admin jailed, so the people jailed were not able to speak to him about it.

I was not one who was jailed so out of all honesty I was not their to witness it. But I trust what James and Sam have told me and as the person who has a better understanding of the rules and speaks better English I have offered to help them during this and discuss this with yourself and other SAES clan members.

I must ask though as well Gengar out of pure curiosity I am very sure that opening the red door is not violating rules in F1? If such rule is not in there, then nothing is being broken? So why were they admin jailed when not violating a F1 rule in the first place.

Maybe a way to prevent this in the future is to allow all cops, squad groups to use F1 im stuck in the jail? Is this something that could be implemented and then would prevent the need for squad members to open the red door to let their squad guys out if they got stuck inside the jail.

[Combine]

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

@tut-greco said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

butthurt beyond 110%

Not butthurt mate got more important things to be worried about ;)

Just trying to help these guys out and also point out such actions should not be accepted. Not trying to get Human removed at all man. Everyone makes mistakes but I think a HQ member needs to speak to him about his poor choice of actions today and give him some advice on what he should do.

It's funny because looking at all the text you've wrote on this topic it clearly seems like you don't have much important shit to do.

I'm gonna briefly answer you too... Today I had an issue with ICE|James|VL who decided to shoot down my Combine Harvester till it exploded, claiming that he did it because I slightly rammed his bus at LV X which was stopped and he wasn't even driving, to top the thing he couldn't even explain himself for his actions with his bad English and when I asked an explanation to ICE|Sam|L he just told me "It's just a game, have fun" till I lastly convinced him to speak with James which probably didn't even happen. Oh and I was spawned trainee with 0 stars.

Oh yeah James didn't even say "stop hitting my bus" before shooting me till my vehicle exploded, which I find pretty strange coming from an offical squad vice leader... Also not much to speak about his childish attitude, as I asked him if he reported me and he said he did not, and 10 minutes earlier Hesha was telling me he reported me (with a bullshit reason probably)

So you want actions to be taken but certainly not inside your squad, when your Vice Leader cannot even abstain of doing "revenge deathmatch"

Everything I see is pure interest.

[Joshbond]

@combine said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

@tut-greco said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

butthurt beyond 110%

Not butthurt mate got more important things to be worried about ;)

Just trying to help these guys out and also point out such actions should not be accepted. Not trying to get Human removed at all man. Everyone makes mistakes but I think a HQ member needs to speak to him about his poor choice of actions today and give him some advice on what he should do.

It's funny because looking at all the text you've wrote on this topic it clearly seems like you don't have much important shit to do.

I'm gonna briefly answer you too... Today I had an issue with ICE|James|VL who decided to shoot down my Combine Harvester till it exploded, claiming that he did it because I slightly rammed his bus at LV X which was stopped and he wasn't even driving, to top the thing he couldn't even explain himself for his actions with his bad English and when I asked an explanation to ICE|Sam|L he just told me "It's just a game, have fun" till I lastly convinced him to speak with James which probably didn't even happen.

So yeah you want actions to be taken but certainly not inside your squad, when your Vice Leader cannot even abstain of doing the so called "revenge deathmatch"

Everything I see is pure interest.

Hi Combine.

It is the weekend mate, I got more time then during the weekdays.

In regards to what you have said, if what you say is true I would never condone those actions or support such actions.

This topic is simply about staff speaking to people about what they are doing before instantly jailing them.
I am not saying opening the red door to let criminals out is right, but this is not what ICE members did. They opened the door to let a squad member out who got stuck. So I am saying that they should be spoken to, to ask why they done what they did.

Human then would have learned the real reason for opening the door.

If actions need to be taken against ICE because of rulebreaking, then so be it, but on this occasion the decision was not correct due to the staff member not learning both sides of the story.

I am a bit bored of this now to be honest. I have made my point.

In the past, it was always said to speak to people before instant jailing them as there is always 2 sides to a story. If that logic is now not being followed then well it is disappointing.

[Markus]

Keep it going, this is pure content.

[Joshbond]

Any how seems this is getting a little out of hand, which is partially my fault so apologies for that.

I will discuss this further with CS management as suggested previously. Thanks for all the comments.

[Teddy]

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

Teddy I understand that SAES entrust their CS members to use their powers fairly and correctly. I am someone out of most who has learnt this and suffered the consequences of this over my SAES career.

However today is different. The situation that lead to ICE and other squad members being jailed is not something mentioned in the F1 rules. So first of all it is not a violation of the server rules.

It is indeed a violation of F1 rules and it always has been. F1 has gone a massive overhaul and then another one, but we can all agree there are a couple of 'common sense' rules on this server and not opening the jail door to let your crim friends out or to abuse it to get arrests is something that falls under that.

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

2nd of all, their was no attempt to communicate with these squad members. They were just immediately admin jailed.

Generally speaking admins and staff members fall into the trap of jail on sight the moment we see a rule being broken, simply because there's too many reports to deal with. Is it correct? No and we all know that's not the optimal situation, however this all results from seeing a blatant rulebreak and an impulsive decision.

The adminjail would not have happened if the rulebreak did not happen. It's equivalent to Person A shooting person B for no reason, then person B coming back from hospital to kill person A in revenge. Person A screenshots it and sends it in a report. The report logs and screenshot clearly shows person B deathmatching A for no reason at all, so person B gets adminjailed. None of this would have happened if person B didn't rulebreak in the first place. Is it fair? No, A is a dickhead. But we don't have 30 mins to spend on solving a single report especially when there's a risk the initial rulebreaker doesn't even speak English.

There's a lot to criticise about our administration decisions, but they all stem from a rule being broken in some way. What also needs to be realised is that if you spent any time outside of SAES you would notice other servers give far far more extreme punishments, all the way from an hour mute in CIT for calling someone an asshole to a kick on FFS for speaking Turkish on Global. A 5 minute adminjail for blatantly breaking a rule is, by all comparisons, pretty generous.

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

Now Teddy, during my staff days, jailing without communication is something that should not be done by any staff. I was warned on a few occasions for admin jailing someone on the spot without communication, by SAES HQ members. So has this logic now changed?

It hasn't changed per se, but as I said, it comes from being used to people breaking rules often and a general lack of time if all you do is solve reports and warp around the server spending 20 minutes playing Sherlock, it becomes impractical and we all know a warning will enter one ear and exit the other 5 minutes later.

Each time I become generous and don't punish (lightly) as a first resort, I find myself warping around listening to people denying they did anything wrong (or not understanding why it's wrong), then spending too much time explaining it and then an hour later getting a report from someone that that person did the same thing over again anyway. No incentive there, is there? As a result most of us jail as a first resort, with less time if it's a smaller rulebreak (or not at all) or a new player, or more stars if it's an old arse being an arsehole. Then send notices to explain more, although sometimes people warp to speak.

@joshbond said in THIS IS NOT FAIR:

On the other hand, I do think these sort of incidents do need to be brought to light and not kept in the shadows.

It helps if you acknowledge you guys broke a rule or complain about administration decisions, rather than trying to tangle yourself out by saying opening doors isn't a rulebreak in the first place or that "we're innocent because we demand a screenshot saying otherwise" The onus of proving guilt is on the reporter, not on the reportee or the staff handling it, thus the staff/admin doesn't justify himself in their decisions.

Please note that I am merely an admin and semi-retired saes member, not a cs leader (and certainly not someone looking to take more positions) so what is up here is merely my opinion plus an explanation of how we operate, not an official judgement.

[Reggi]

This was a solid read.